Classic, The Guinea Pig

Needs moar Workshop!

Now that we have Bazaar, dredge is a powerhouse.
Now that we have Mana Drain, blue control is a powerhouse.

No love for prison?

good article.

What no love for our new mascot, Classy?

I don't expect much to change in regard to legacy/vintage players following classic.  They already doubt that earthcraft has much impact in elves (for legacy) or that Classic is a real format (for vintage), etc etc.  I read through TMD and MTGTS and they are such cesspools of inbred thinking that it's hard to take them seriously.  TS is especially awful in this regard.  Maybe people will change, but I'm not sure.

i like how you pretty much opened the door with your thinking at the end of the article for p9.

Originally posted by Bazaar of Baghdad The part of the logic that I fear is that how many people exactly tried to break Dream Halls recently or Mind's Desire, etc.  How many professional sharks are out there tied to Classic?  Any?  If there were serious money invested in Classic, the B&R list might look very different.  I was also thinking they could unrestrict other cards like Worldgorger Dragon, Illusionary Mask, and maybe Hermit Druid, though I'm not sure I grasp all the causalities that would create.   Good read, Danger.

I agree completely - both that the list might look pretty different if more people were playing Classic and that it was a good read.

Great article! Well written, full of good information.

Originally posted by rukcus Now that we have Mana Drain, blue control is a powerhouse.

Actually, Blue Control isn't using Mana Drain.

The latest 2 netdeck lists for Classic top finshers:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/decks/mol575439
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/decks/mol575438

The only Blue Control deck among the top finisher is Tulio_Jaudy's Gro-A-Tog relative, which didn't run Mana Drain.

Why is Mana Drain priced so high? (http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/ME3_Mana_Drain.html)
Nostalgia?
Alternate Formats?
Speculation that the meta will shift back where manabases are safe?

Dunno.

Originally posted by Dangerlinto Maybe it’s not so bad being a guinea pig.

As I touched on above, card prices are all over the board.
With Wizards complicating things all the more by releasing massive, non-paper-parallel sets packed with undesirable filler and a small number of Classic chase rares.

What this causes, is a lot of cost involved in buying cards to play Classic.
Without a paper parallel, the format already lacks an existing community from which to draw.
And with the periodic release of random golden-oldie bombs; the metagame, decklists, and cards needed can (and do) change radically. (and then these things change again once the bombs are ruled on in the Banned and Restricted List)

Without a ban on the continued release of ancient bombs, the players can't rely on any current deck they bankroll staying a contender.
Without confirmation that all Vintage will be brought online over time, the players can't rely on Vintage metagame decklists as a model.

Being a Guinea Pig can be fun.
But when it is complicated with high costs of time and money, it can drive players away.

Right now we're seeing a lot of top decks that mirror powerdecks from other online formats.
I expect this contributes to the playability of the format by online players.
However, if the metagame shifts to decks running Orim's Chant, Force Of Will, Mana Drain, lots of duals, etc., I expect it will drive up the costs too high for many players.

I've been out of the Classic scene for a long time, so I apologize for assumptions or statements I've made that don't make sense. (please correct me on those areas)

on top of that classic besides fow is a rather cheap format not one single med3 card is sold for over 18 tix currently and duals from me2 top out in the mid to high 20's. i dont know what your basing your asumpengs on but a teir 1 classic deck is running roughly the cost of 5cc in std excluding fow, and these cards will retain value where as reflecting pool will drop at least half its value when it rotates.

i will tell you one thing this classic community is a lot nicer than half of those people on thesource. also have you seen the paper prices for just say legacy not even vintage .cards like moat ,imperial recruiter and  ravages of war are 120. tabernacle ,grim tutor,  almost any card in legends and arabian nights set . tarmo is 40 bucks in paper OMG so is sea drake   . untill recently berserk  and serendib were very hard to obtain. vintage imperial seal mana crypt mana drain pff i could go on all day with this but all in all mtgo is way more affordable not to mention your cards always stay mint condition

Originally posted by walkerdog Also, people complain about dropping $400+ for a Classic deck, and irl that's like 1.5 pieces of power...

Just barely 1.5.  more like 1 piece if you buy from ebay
http://www.magictraders.com/cgi-bin/query.cgi?list=magic&target=mox&field=0&operator=re

Originally posted by dangerlinto Originally posted by zaspacer Without a paper parallel, the format already lacks an existing community from which to draw.   I'm just going to focus on the above, because I find it so very insulting.   Originally posted by zaspacer I've been out of the Classic scene for a long time, so I apologize for assumptions or statements I've made that don't make sense. (please correct me on those areas)   Maybe you missed the part where classic grew a community - right here and on PureMTGO.   Without a paper counterpart.

My apologies for my insulting the Classic community.

That was not my intention, and I believe it is because my post was poorly worded and therefor misinterpreted.

What I was trying to say is that the Classic community is a new format.
It has built itself anew without any pre-existing paper direct parrallel. (yes, there are influences within Classic from many paper formats, but it does not define itself step-by-step with any 1 of those formats)
While other formats (Block, Standard, Extended) on MTGO can draw paper players to add to their ranks, Classic does not have this resource to tap into.

Without a paper parallel, the format lacks an existing paper community from which to draw additional players.

Does this diminish the value or vibrance of Classic or the Classic community?
No.
Is not having a paper parallel to draw extra players from a make or break issue?
I don't think so.
But I do think that it is one of the many factors that influence the participation in numbers of the format... so I mentioned it.
Just as I mentioned how current top decks that mirror powerdecks from other online formats likely contributes to the playability of the format by online players.

For the record:
I have not played paper at a serious level since 1996.
I played MTGO seriously from Onslaught through Shards of Alara.

Originally posted by LOurs Originally posted by zaspacer Without confirmation that all Vintage will be brought online over time, the players can't rely on Vintage metagame decklists as a model. Currently, i think this is exactly what is interesting for many deck builders . A copy/paste of any vintage or legacy isnt enough to perform or to top8. Play skills are an important part, but to be able to understand the unique metagame that mtgo offers is also needed.

I agree that not mirroring Vintage makes Classic much more dynamic.

I am just saying that it also leaves players without an easy "grocery list" of cards they'll need to play Classic over the long haul.
Many players have a hard time buying into the game without some sort of understanding that for x $ they'll reliably be able to play in the format.
I am not saying this is a good or bad thing in the big picture, I am just noting that it affects player decisions.

I used to play MTGO with a couple of old friends.
We mostly stopped playing after the release of the MTGO 3 (we didn't like the new play experience), but our play really ended when Extended rotated.
They had become gradually invested in a portfolio of Extended decks over time (many of which shared core power cards), and with the rotation they were without a format and their built up vault of cards was slashed in value.

I did my research on Vintage and Legacy at the time of the extended rotation.
I realized then was the time to grab likely future Classic staples.
I got my 4xFoW for ~$12/each and tried to get my friends to grab them as well. (1 did)
I bought about 13 Lion's Eye Diamond (~$7/each) and about 4 Foil Lion's Eye Diamond (~$14/each).
4x Null Rod.
4+ of the different tutors.
... and a LOT of other cards that aren't more (or that much more) expensive now.
But my friends didn't.

Every time Wizards rotates a format or radically changes a metagame or reprints a pricey rare, some players feel left in the lurch.
Same for an MMO nerfing a character class, or a Fighting Game nerfing or radically changing a character in a series.

Which brings me (sorry for the long wordedness) to the point: shake up a format enough, and it will hemorrhage players. (especially one with a high cost of learning curve time or $)


Edited by zaspacer - 26 Sep 2009 at 7:49pm