 |
 |
|
 |
||
     |
Classic, The Guinea Pig |
Post Reply 
|
Page <12 |
| Author |
 Share Topic Printable Version Delicious Digg Facebook Furl Google Boomarks Google Buzz MySpace Newsvine reddit StumbleUpon Translate Twitter Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks Topic Search  Topic Options
|
||
dangerlinto 
Grand Poobah 
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Online Posts: 3994 |
 Post Options
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Classic, The Guinea PigPosted: 03 Mar 2010 at 5:56pm |
||
|
I'm bringing this article up again for 2 reasons
1) There isn't a Legacy section here on CQ... yet
2) I wanted to start a dialogue on how this process might be used again to make the case for more Legacy unbannings
I'll throw some cards out there.
Black Vise - Honestly, I don't think this card is even close to the danger level it used to be. I have difficulty seeing it being even viable, much less broken
Land Tax - Same thing, except Land Tax is the scourge of Tournament Organizers everywhere with all it's shuffling. But in online Legacy (remember they aren't the same format) I think it's just fine
Not being as Legacy savvy as many others who come here, I'm interested in yuor thoughts
|
|||
 |
|||
|
Cownose
CQ Member
looks like a cat to me... Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Online Posts: 637 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 7:29pm |
||
|
at least Land Tax does not shuffle anywhere near as much as SDT, I think it can stay
Black Vise I'm not sure on. Without fast mana it is very hard to empty your hand quickly in legacy, so a vise on turn 1 is good for at least 5-7 damage...potentially a lot more. This, to me, seems like kinda a random win every now and then, and would probably get really annoying to have as a 4-of. |
|||
|
Mongooses!!!!!
|
|||
|
|||
|
TheGoldenVoid
Classic Member 
Joined: 26 May 2009 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 459 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 4:58am |
||
|
I can't see Land Tax being a problem. It only fetches basic lands after all.
Black Vise is harder to call. Turn 1 it can be devastating, especially with the right back up (lots of bounce, LD, burn or fast aggro, Chants even), and 2 of them early can easily deal you 12-15 damage alone. But any later and it's a dead draw, which almost seems fair enough to me.
I'd be fine with both being legal in Legacy.
Also what is your motivation in trying to get Legacy unbannings? The format is incredibly hot right now, rising in popularity all the time, and seems to keep its player base very happy. Several dozen viable tournament decks is simply incredible. Why try to mess with it with additional unbannings for online? I realise online Legacy is different from paper with a few key cards missing, but they are actually very very close*. A Legacy variant online, with a different banned list, would seem to me to serve no purpose other than to make online Legacy less appealing to new users. Give it a bad rep if you will.
* They are close enough that of those 50 decks of Legacy that Star City listed, you can build at least half of them right now, either exactly as printed, or with a totally acceptable functional replacement of a couple of (usually sideboard) cards. I know this because I did it!
|
|||
|
|||
|
dangerlinto
Grand Poobah
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Online Posts: 3994 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:13am |
||
I should think the answer to that is obvious. Cards should be banned or restricted as little as possible. Playing with cards is fun. I specifically keyed in on those two because their power is so very light (relatively) and so very unused in classic that it would be nice to have a place to play them. The other card that might be worthwhile to look at, though my guess is it should remain banned, is Mind Twist |
|||
|
|||
|
TheGoldenVoid
Classic Member
Joined: 26 May 2009 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 459 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:37am |
||
|
Sorry I thought you were looking to make the banned lists different between online and offline Legacy, which would seem an incredibly bad idea.
|
|||
|
|||
|
iceage4life
CQ Member
But give me Tempset block! Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1258 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:34am |
||
I don't think that banned lists should be any different. However I think with all the sac lands in Legacy I don't think Land Tax would be that bad and it could open up some fun decks.
Land Tax shuffles much more often than SDT ;)
Agreed Mind Twist is an interesting idea but would require a lot of testing. |
|||
|
In the game of chess you can never let your opponent see your pieces.
|
|||
|
|||
|
dangerlinto
Grand Poobah
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Online Posts: 3994 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 7:50am |
||
My guess is the lists will be the same - though perhaps not always synced up. Make no mistake, online Legacy will be treated differently than caveman Legacy. Especially in so far as the B&R updates for online Legacy will take place once a month, and caveman magic is once every three months. Online Extended was treated in exactly the same way. That will reamin until WoTC determine they are synced up enough to not worry about the missing cards. That being said, I expect that if they wanted to unban something like Land Tax, they could do it online first and then make the decision for the caveman players in 1-2 months. I would expect since the card pools are similar (and continually getting closer) the banned list will remain similar- if not exact. But don't let that blind you to the possibility they might not be the same. Let's hypothesize that Legacy was online tomorrow, and Derk Depths turned out to be a monster deck online, dominating top 8s. And the DCI determined that the presence of Maze of Ith was majorly responsible for the lack of domination in caveman magic, and banned Depths (warning! hypothesizing to make a point - not advocating or suggesting) - you can see how it might be possible for the lists to be different. I doubt such an occurrence would or will ever happen, but I wouldn't want to shut myself off to the possibility it would. Edited by dangerlinto - 04 Mar 2010 at 7:57am |
|||
|
|||
|
Cownose
CQ Member
looks like a cat to me... Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Online Posts: 637 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:01am |
||
|
Land Tax shuffles once a turn. SDT Shuffles at least once during my turn (more if I fetch) and again at least once during your turn.
Mind twist can come off, nobody would use it instead of Hymn anyway |
|||
|
Mongooses!!!!!
|
|||
|
|||
|
dangerlinto
Grand Poobah
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Online Posts: 3994 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:25am |
||
Cow - SDT doesn't shuffle. You just look at the top 3 cards and put them back in any order. As near as I can tell, shuffling is a major problem for TO because of a) the time it takes. and b) all the possibilities for cheating while doing so. While SDT might take up a lot of time while people decide, it's not the same problem as shuffling. |
|||
|
|||
|
TheGoldenVoid
Classic Member
Joined: 26 May 2009 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 459 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:32am |
||
|
SDT doesn't shuffle at all. You rearrange the top 3 cards of your library.
As for Mind Twist, agreed, it's harmless:
X = 1: Hymn is better
X = 2: Hymn is better
X = 3: Mind Twist is better (although Hymn plus 2 mana left for something else - not least a second Hymn - might be better)
X = 4: Mind Sludge is more or less equal and not banned
|
|||
|
|||
|
SICKSICKSICK
Classic Member
But otherwise healthy Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 312 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:37am |
||
|
Land Tax caused inordinate shuffling back in the day, but that was before fetchlands made constant shuffling a fact of life.
Edit: SDT does not shuffle but it's a time consuming process of dinking with the cards in your library. For the standpoint of wasting time in paper games, that's pretty much the same thing.
|
|||
|
slide into the water/ b'come one with the sea/ life seems so much smaller/ swim to the moon
|
|||
|
|||
|
SICKSICKSICK
Classic Member
But otherwise healthy Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 312 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 10:06am |
||
|
Vise sees 0 classic play. I doubt it'd see much more in legacy.
Earthcraft is not broken. The Squirrel Nest combo is cute but it even after you find both cards your opponent gets another turn. I'm sure it'd be fine.
Frantic Search is a terrible card and I can't fathom why it's restricted in Vintage. It would see 0 play if allowed in any format.
Hermit Druid is a very narrow, hate-able deck. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it in the mix.
Land Tax seems completely fair these days. It might make the Scroll Rack gambit finally pay off!
I'd vote to unban Mind Twist. The Golden Void has a nice analysis above that I agree with.
I think Skullclamp is fine, believe it or not. ANT and Zoo are so fast clamp wouldn't even matter.
Time Spiral would see no play if it were legal. 6cc spell? Forget it!
Worldgorger Dragon sounds hard to set up and is extremely vulnerable to everything. Let it free.
|
|||
|
slide into the water/ b'come one with the sea/ life seems so much smaller/ swim to the moon
|
|||
|
|||
|
Cownose
CQ Member
looks like a cat to me... Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Online Posts: 637 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 12:38pm |
||
|
Okay, you are all right--I was thinking the problem was taking a long time, and that SDT takes up more time than LT....but SDT definitely does not "shuffle" per se =)...I think the point still stands though
|
|||
|
Mongooses!!!!!
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tolarian Academy
Classic Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 305 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 1:39pm |
||
|
Cards I'd like to see unbanned in Legacy?
Earthcraft. Makes Elves! competetive and doenst really help any other deck.
Mana Drain. Come on, it's just a slightly better Counterspell. Even if it would help set up an early Tezzeret, its not like there is Time Vault in the format. Counterspell doesn't see any play, but Drain could help bringing Landstill back in the format, maybe other hardcore control decks. It's sad they died. Also, the curve of the format is so low, in general you get 1 mana from Drain, not that gamechanging...
|
|||
|
worst zoo player ever. rumour has is that dunkle_stille is christopher eucken, which explains why he makes a mistake every single turn…
|
|||
|
|||
|
SICKSICKSICK
Classic Member
But otherwise healthy Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 312 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:35pm |
||
|
Some Legacy cards are banned due to price and availability (i.e. Illusionary Mask).
Even if Mana Drain was okay power level wise, I think it'd fail the expense/availability test. |
|||
|
slide into the water/ b'come one with the sea/ life seems so much smaller/ swim to the moon
|
|||
|
|||
|
iceage4life
CQ Member
But give me Tempset block! Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1258 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:02pm |
||
|
Hell of a lot cheaper than Tabernacle. That said I think Tabernacle needs some form or reprinting or to be banned due to price.
|
|||
|
In the game of chess you can never let your opponent see your pieces.
|
|||
|
|||
|
whiffy penguin
Classic Member
Your backyard friend Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Location: philly Online Status: Offline Posts: 913 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 7:31pm |
||
|
the thing about banning for price reasons is that its rediculos. by that logic just ban the power 9 and every one can play vintage.
even though tabernacle is such a house the deck can win with out it. mana drain is probably safe for legacy but then it would be a 200 dollar card instaed of 120 or what ever it is. i dont know looking through the banned list i see at least 10 cards that could be tested at the very least. maybe they will experiment on some of the more dangerous cards with online legacy and farm those results.
|
|||
|
Member of Clan Magic Eternal. Author of Whiffy's Lunch Box on Pure mtgo.
The thing you know to be true will be the lie that kills you. |
|||
|
|||
|
menace13
Classic Member
Oh, Mr. Wilson! Joined: 08 May 2009 Location: nyc Online Status: Offline Posts: 861 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 1:02am |
||
|
The few cards i feel should not be unbanned are:
Skullclamp-completely wins attrition wars allowing for refill after refill..heck a Clamp on BoB is as good as 2 turns with bob
Mana Drain-There is too much of a blowout potential in draining a spell of 3cc +(Counterbalance would use it as it helps with those spells that dodge the balance)
remember this is a format that bans Mind's Desire
I pretty much agree with sick's list, anything that adds more archetypes is good and hermit/dragon would be fun to see again.
Why not allow Goblin Recruiter/Food Chain?
Gush....no Fastbond so why not?
Mask is useless
|
|||
|
|||
|
TheGoldenVoid
Classic Member
Joined: 26 May 2009 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 459 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 9:24am |
||
Ironically a well thought-out banning can usually add more archetypes than an unbanning can. :)
Put it another way, if Oath were unbanned in Legacy right now, a great deal of its viable decks would immediately die. Turn 2 Iona changes absolutely everything. (and no, Reanimator dropping turn 2 Iona doesn't count).
|
|||
|
|||
|
walkerdog
Minor Poobah 
but don't pet her cat! Joined: 10 Mar 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1176 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 8:41pm |
||
|
Mind's Desire is stupidly still banned. Really? People just play ANT and win 1 mana faster as the format stands now.
|
|||
|
Magic Eternal
|
|||
|
|||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <12 |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
